Discussioni Wikipedia:Ambasciata/Archivio 1/Traduzione 2

I am "Qualcuno" from #traduzione, here to ask for another translation into English. I am trying to translate this biography about Girolamo Maggi, because I want to make a Featured Article. This is the only modern biography available.

"Giovinetto studiò eloquenza sotto un Pierantonio Ghezzi da Laterina, maestro di latinità, non so se in patria od altrove; quindi per meglio addentrarsi negli studi allora in voga, portossi dapprima alla Università della vicina Perugia, poscia a quella di Pisa, ed a quella infine di Bologna (2). In Pisa frequentò le lezioni del celebre professore di greca e latina eloquenza, Francesco Robortello, il quale v'insegnò dal 1543 al 1549. Ad ogni modo, il Maggi, che oltre la nativa sua lingua toscana, erasi già pienamente insignorito della latina ed erudito nella greca e nell'ebraica, nonchè nella spagnuola, fornito di siffatti sussidi applicossi alla giurisprudenza, piuttosto per indagarne la mente, che non per professarla: diedesi dapprima al metodo erudito dell'Alciato, quindi a quello di Bartolo e della scuola del XIV e XV secolo (3)."

page 110

Thanks for any help. --Brian0918 08:25, 15 mar 2006 (CET)

As a young man he studied rhetoric/eloquence? with Pierantonio Ghezzi from Laterina, a master of Latin, I do not know whether in his homeland or elsewhere. Afterwards, to proceed with the then popular studies, he went at first to the nearby University of Perugia, then to that of Pisa, and finally to that of Bologna. In Pisa he attended the lectures of the famous professor in Latin and Greek language/eloquence? Francesco Robertello, who taught there from 1543 to 1549. Anyway, Maggi, who beyond his native Tuscan, had mastered Latin and was erudite in Greek and Hebrew, and also in Spanish, availing himself of such endowments, he applied himself to jurisprudence, more to inquire into its spirit than for its profession: at first he studied the method of Alciato, then that of Bartolo and the school of the XIV and XV century.

Old text, difficult to render. May sound awkward and old-fashioned, but should convey some of the tone of the original. Hope this helps. I'm not sure how to translate "eloquenza", but gave two suggestions, I guess it just means "mastery of the language". Cat 10:50, 15 mar 2006 (CET)

• a very good translation - I think "rhetoric" is the best possible guess, since it probably conveys a sense of verbal argument. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:58, 15 mar 2006 (CET)
• Thanks for the translation. I found eloquènza defined on this page as "eloquence", but this dictionary defines it as "oratory". Is the 2nd one more accurate? --Brian0918 21:09, 15 mar 2006 (CET)

The word seems to come from Latin eloquens meaning "speaking out" - so I too have assumed that there is probably an oral aspect to the meaning above confirming what you have found - the medieval equivalent of presentation skills perhaps? I still believe that "rhetoric" is a good guess, because at a stretch it probably includes the art of verbal argument. To top it all off, the original meaning of "rhetoric" in English was the art of oratory - so there you have it. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:44, 16 mar 2006 (CET)

traduzione 3

Can someone translate (into English) these verses from a poem written in 1551:

Se il giovin quale Ulpian, Bartolo e Baldo

Disturban spesso e l'aspra inopia e dura

Non viene afforza al poetar men saldo,

E a l'avvocar rivolti ogni sua cura;

Io per certo infiammato esser e caldo

A fare il veggio un'immortal scrittura,

Gli dia la vita il Ciel, sostegno e 'l nido,

E 'l gran Cosmo udirà, d'altr'opra il grido.

These verses are from this biography, page 113. Thanks for any help. --Brian0918 22:10, 16 mar 2006 (CET)

This is harder than the other ones, I can barely understand the meaning in italian. paulatz(+) 23:00, 16 mar 2006 (CET)

Nuff said! I can figure something out to paraphrase it, but a word-by-word translation looks really desperate... mmmm... I Know someone who would try this challenge. - εΔω 23:16, 16 mar 2006 (CET)

• This is a conversation that we have been carrying on en:wiki for some time, and there, Brian, we have been trying to say why we think this kind of approach is wrong. Asking 15 different people on en:wiki and then some of us here to translate this 16th century text without trying any kind of co-ordination IMHO will not just work. You are just going to have several versions of the same stuff which just will not match. My best suggestion is that you make up a real team of translators to work on wiki. --Wikipedius 01:32, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

Please sign below to help Brian with the translation. Thanks.

+1--Wikipedius 01:32, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• • The entire biography isn't from the 16th century. Only this small block. The rest is from the 19th century. I didn't ask those 15 people to translate the same paragraphs. I asked for different paragraphs for all 15. --Brian0918 02:01, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• +1 Perhape there's something we should know? Anyway, here it is:

Se il giovin quale Ulpian, Bartolo e Baldo Disturban spesso e l'aspra inopia e dura Non viene afforza al poetar men saldo, E a l'avvocar rivolti ogni sua cura; Io per certo infiammato esser e caldo A fare il veggio un'immortal scrittura, Gli dia la vita il Ciel, sostegno e 'l nido, E 'l gran Cosmo udirà, d'altr'opra il grido.

If youg men such as Ulpian, Bartolo or Baldo Are often bugging you and poverty is harsh There's no relief for the trivial poetry, And you turn all your cares to advocating; I for certain flame up and get heated Of changig a pot for immortal writing Shall the heaven give him life, support his nest, And the great Cosmos shall hear the cry of another work.

I'll suggest to wait for a couple more opinions before publishing my translation on wikipedia. Bye, paulatz(+) 01:42, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

Here's mine, but i just read a couple of pages from that book:

Se il giovin quale Ulpian, Bartolo e Baldo Disturban spesso e l'aspra inopia e dura Non viene afforza al poetar men saldo, E a l'avvocar rivolti ogni sua cura; Io per certo infiammato esser e caldo A fare il veggio un'immortal scrittura, Gli dia la vita il Ciel, sostegno e 'l nido, E 'l gran Cosmo udirà, d'altr'opra il grido.

Ulpian, Bartolo and Baldo the young man Do often bother and destitution dire Cannot aid a poetry yet weakened much, And on begging for help, always, he is bent; I, no doubt for being sensitive and moody I see him write immortal verse, Hoping Heaven may give it life, shelter, help. And Cosimo will hear the cry of fame from another work.

--Wikipedius 02:54, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

Wow, I now feel embarassed to put up my effort, but here it is. I'm not too fussed about what Brian did. You have to admit, it was kind of fun - any excuse to procrastinate! (i.e. to not be doing something else I am meant to be doing right now)

Se il giovin quale Ulpian, Bartolo e Baldo Disturban spesso e l'aspra inopia e dura Non viene afforza al poetar men saldo, E a l'avvocar rivolti ogni sua cura; Io per certo infiammato esser e caldo A fare il veggio un'immortal scrittura, Gli dia la vita il Ciel, sostegno e 'l nido, E 'l gran Cosmo udirà, d'altr'opra il grido.

If our youth should be continually bothered/distressed by the likes of Ulpian, Bartolo and Baldo, and life's harsh circumstances Cannot enhance such superficial poetry, And one turns to independent arbitration to resolve personal problems, I, quite rightly inflamed and seething with rage, From the preparation of timeless literature, Shall beseech the heavens to give it life, sustenance and shelter Such that the greater Cosmos will feel the reverberation of this other great work

-- ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:27, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• I have to admit, I really like this version. I hope it is accurate :) Are you sure that it is saying that "our youth are bothered by U,B,B", and not that "youth like U,B,B, continually bother us"? --Brian0918 04:48, 17 mar 2006 (CET)
• Also, l'avvocar appears to mean "the practice of law" (since the poet is referring to his hatred for being a laywer), so I have changed that. --Brian0918 05:05, 17 mar 2006 (CET)
• Hi Brian - the other two are more expert than I, so please weigh them all up - I can't help thinking that it is U,B,B doing the bothering of someone (like the young, or similar). I have concluded that they are not bothering us, or anyone else for that matter, because I can't see another object (pronoun) - but it could be a subtle form of medieval Italian poetry that is lost on me. I certainly agree with your assessment re l'avvocar - without the benefit of the context I got the impression that he was turning to something like that (and thus my creative translation) - I had also toyed with the word "justiciar". But I think putting the three together we might get quite close! ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 06:53, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• My main concerns are about "veggio" which could be a sort of pot (in the sense of a meal) or an archaic form for "I see" or "I wish to". The pippu's version is definetly better for the quality of english. paulatz(+) 13:27, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• After some checks my opinion is that veggio is probably archaic for "veglio" (vegliare), which means "to keep awake". paulatz(+) 13:41, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

thanks Paulatz - but I've probably mixed up the opening bit about who is bothering who - I'm really not sure now and I would rely on you and Wikipedius for that one. "Veggio" really had me stumped and it was just a stab in the dark. I also note that "veggente" means clairvoyant - is that of some relevance? ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 13:48, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• Maybe we should all take it from a paraphrasis:

Se il giovin quale Ulpian, Bartolo e Baldo Disturban spesso e l'aspra inopia e dura Non viene afforza al poetar men saldo, E a l'avvocar rivolti ogni sua cura; Io per certo infiammato esser e caldo A fare il veggio un'immortal scrittura, Gli dia la vita il Ciel, sostegno e 'l nido, E 'l gran Cosmo udirà, d'altr'opra il grido.

Se persone come Ulpiano, Bartolo e Baldo Disturbano spesso quel giovane [cioé l'autore] e la sua brutta povertà Non non lo aiuta certo a poetare, facoltà in cui egli è debole, E rivolga ogni sua preoccupazione a cercare aiuto [finanziario] dagli altri, E se io, per la natura del mio focoso carattere Lo vedo a comporre versi immortali, Allora il Cielo gli dia forza, sostegno e protezione [nido], In modo che il grande Cosimo [de' Medici] udrà la fama di ben altra opera [un opera diversa da questa, che non è confortata dall'aiuto delle muse].

The narrator here speaks of himself (il giovin, he is young and in need) in the third person. I think Avvocar must not be taken to court for that, but rather in the sense of advocate for oneself, begging for financial help. Veggio is Old It. for vedo. The poem ends (as usual in poetry, captatio benevolentiae or [false] modesty if you wish): the author asks the musae, the goddesses of poetry (il Ciel) for help so that fame will bring this verse to Cosimo. (in the bio, Cosimo seems to have ignored Maggi's request for help, so you may also take it as a jab at the Medicis but this is my interpretation). --Wikipedius 14:11, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

Kudos to Wikipedius who knows what he's saying, and proves it as a true serious scholar. I subscribe every word of his translation, but I suggest a diferent incipit, which I'd rephrase this way:

Se il giovin quale Ulpian, Bartolo e Baldo Disturban spesso e l'aspra inopia e dura

Se Bartolo e Baldo (oltre che la sua tragica indigenza finanziaria) disturbano spesso il giovine come fosse Ulpiano...

Implying an antonomasia, since Ulpian was certainly intended as the typical "important lawyer" (and indeed Ulpian had a lot to be praised for his work)... - εΔω 14:58, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

as for the dislocation of the second emistich should be regarded as a zeugma, and be linked as subjects to the same verb of the second verse (as suggested by the ordo verborum "adj.-noun-adj-" of "aspra inopia e dura").

After a second glance I'd take back into consideration "avvocar" as "working as a lawyer". Reading the introduction ("lagnasi della sua trista sorte" ecc.) I weakly suggest something like

[Se il giovin ... disturban] Non viene afforza al poetar men saldo, E a l'avvocar rivolti ogni sua cura;

[...Nonostante le difficoltà...] Non si rivolge meno sicuro (anche se in difficoltà) all'arte poetica Dunque dedichi ogni suo impegno al lavoro di avvocato;

But "afforza" still baffles me (I found only 2 instances, but in Carducci as "rafforza", so they're no use). The exhortative subjunctive is a mark of transition between third and first person (from monologue to dialogue) - εΔω 15:45, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

So how do Wikipedius's new changes translate into English? --Brian0918 15:24, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• No Brian, my paraphrasis still reflects the translation i have given above. Edo, you may be right about Ulpian (but: symbol or reference to an unnamed person?). Here i have equated avvocar to begging, and this makes sense to me because here the author is asking for money, help, etc. It. avvocar < Lat. advocare "to invoke", "invocare". Vero, advocare also means "to be a lawyer", "fare l'avvocato", ma dei due non ha più senso il primo? --Wikipedius 16:06, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

I signed my suggestion as "weak", being unable to find a final evidence to decide.

Ulpiano, Bartolo and Baldo are famous masters of (roman) law, the youngster is bored and vexed by his studies, he's poor and would rather like to dedicate himself to poetry under the patronage of a rich man. That's the intent of the little poem. He's telling himself that even while he doesn't get all the subtleties of the ancient codexes, he should not keep pushing himself to work, but dedicate himeslf to poetry to lift his spirits. So I interpret the "afforza" as "perciò": Even though you are disturbed by the difficult studies and poverty, do not because of this lose heart in writing poetry, and do not dedicate all your care to lawyering, and you will see that you will ahve success because of your works. "Cosmo" could indeed be a pun or play on words on cosmos/Cosimo. Hope this helps. Cat 16:32, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

Yes, that's right: Baldo degli Ubaldi (Perugia, 1320 - Pavia, 1400) and Bartolo da Sassoferrato (Venatura - Sassoferrato, 1313 - Perugia, 1357) are listed among the biggest "commentatori". See here for reference and here for a sample. Great achievement, Carlo! As a payload I can't figure out anymore what "quale"... implies - εΔω 16:45, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

So this would exclude advocare in the sense of begging? If the three characters symbolise law (sorry i am not an expert here), we might have:

Se il giovin quale Ulpian, Bartolo e Baldo Disturban spesso e l'aspra inopia e dura Non viene afforza al poetar men saldo, E a l'avvocar rivolti ogni sua cura; Io per certo infiammato esser e caldo A fare il veggio un'immortal scrittura, Gli dia la vita il Ciel, sostegno e 'l nido, E 'l gran Cosmo udirà, d'altr'opra il grido.

Anche se Ulpiano, Bartolo e Baldo [l'avvocatura] Distolgono spesso quel giovane [cioé l'autore] e la sua aspra povertà Non non lo aiuta certo a poetare, facoltà in cui egli è debole, E [il giovin] rivolge ogni sua preoccupazione all'avvocatura, Nondimeno tengo per fermo che per la natura del suo focoso carattere Lo vedrò comporre versi immortali, Con la forza, sostegno e protezione [nido] del Cielo [le Muse], E grande Cosimo [de' Medici] udrà la fama di ben altra opera [un opera diversa da questa, che qui non è confortata dall'aiuto delle muse].

• In short: "I am constantly bothered by my lawsuits (Ulpian etc.) but my will to write poetry is stronger and if the heavens assist me Cosimo (I exclude the pun, i think it's archaic as Cosma, father of the Orthodox Church) will hear of a different (=much better) work than this (=much better). --Wikipedius 17:06, 17 mar 2006 (CET)
  • Amen! Still in doubt about "quale" in verse 1 and the subjunctive in verse 3, but these are just details: the meaning is clear and your summary perfect. Well done, Mauro! Imprimatur... er, Anglice vertatur. - εΔω 18:48, 17 mar 2006 (CET)
  • Can you provide a line-by-line translation to English? I would like to put it next to the original verses in the article. --Brian0918 19:00, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• Gentile da parte tua, gratias ago magistro latino eloquio... ma ancora mancano delle cosette!
• Brian, we are trying to get to it. I understand Edo's doubts about quale. Am i stretching it out too far if i interpret quale = people like/such people as = "persone quali". Edo, non pensi che ci sia una qualche ellissi nel verso (volutamente criptico)? Is it the young man who sees himself as that/those lawyer(s) who stop(s) him from writing? Un confronto con la parte di se stesso che odia? --Wikipedius 19:56, 17 mar 2006 (CET)
  • If it is any help, I noticed a short footnote to that section of poetry: "L'ultimo verso allude il poema che proponevasi di scrivere sul padre di Cosimo." --Brian0918 20:42, 17 mar 2006 (CET)

• • • Reading through the impressive contributions of everyone above, I am now seeing it all with great clarity - veggio tutto con una clarità grannissima... Summarising the above, this is the approximate meaning of the stanza (but does not represent a literal translation of each line):

1. The poet himself is the young man becoming increasingly bored by the works of UBB, in fact, it could even open as: “As this young man becomes increasingly bored by the works (or likes) of UBB...

2. He is impoverished

3. This state of affairs is not helping his poetry

4. He has the opportunity of escaping his present material state through a career in jurisprudence

5. The very thought compels him to foresee the timeless work he will create (in terms of poetry) - as opposed to the superficial quality of the texts in jurisprudence he is currently studying

6. He hopes he will do this under the oversight of the great Muse in the heavens

7. The fame of this other great work (the real great work) will reverberate through the Cosmos (and/or reach Cosimo)

• I think we almost got it! As for the words quale and afforza you may want to take a look here --Wikipedius 05:03, 18 mar 2006 (CET)